Lotus Sutra, Lecture No. II-11

Shunryu Suzuki Transcript

October 1968

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Last—last lecture we studied about Mahakashapa. Mahakashapa, the—who became the second Patriarch, and who was always presiding the—Buddha’s sangha. And, I think, you must have many questions about him. And anyway, that is what we are studying—is not Zen, so-called it Zen Buddhism itself. It is—now we are discussing more original way of Buddhism. Before—even before various schools of Buddhism arised. So, there is a big difference. And this point should be remembered.

Now, I'm not telling you about Zen Buddhism. But, still, Zen Buddhism is also Buddhism. This is [laughs] Zen Buddhism is not some teaching completely different from those teaching. So, there is some important connection. Or you may say, the things we are studying is the background of Zen Buddhism.

So, from this viewpoint, I want you to ask me questions. If necessary, the relationship between Zen and teaching of Zen and more original Buddhism. Hai.

Q: Didn't you say one time that Mahakashapa was considered the first Patriarch?

Yes.

Q: The second Patriarch.

Q: I think that you said it was generally[?] Buddhism?

Second Patriarch. No, it is not so. But most Tendai and Zen Buddhism are nearly the same lineage. So, it means that almost all the Buddhisms[?]—all the school take Mahakashapa as the second Patriarch. Almost all. There may be some exception, but I don't know any exception.

Q: So, the second in Zen Buddhism?

Yes, second in Zen Buddhism and second in Tendai school. If so, most school takes him as the second Patriarch. Hai.

Q: You said that Mahakashapa did not have such a good understanding of emptiness as some of the other disciples.

No, I didn’t say so.

Q: ??? as Subhuti…

Q: Disciples who understood emptiness …

Yeah, but it means that each—each of the ten important disciples has their characteristic, you know.

Subhuti is famous for his understanding of emptiness, and Shariputra is famous his wisdom. I think [laughs] nearly the same thing [laughs]. Understanding of emptiness is understanding of wisdom, but Shariputra is more—he was more philosophical and his understanding is wider. And you may say, he was a smart fellow [laughs]. He—he was very clever[?], very sharp and clever, and he has also deep understanding. A kind of, maybe, psalm[?] or—various scripture is attributed to him. Without it, not much exist [laughs].

Right after Buddha passed away, their group divided in two, and—and pretty soon after—after that, they divided in five, before Mahayana Buddhism arrives, and the more philosophical teaching of Buddha, or a teaching which is described in more philosophical way. Why I say so is because we don't know those—even that kind of old scripture told by Buddha or not. We don't know. Maybe no one knows, but it is—the language which was—in which those scripture was told it is not so old, you know. It should be two hundred or three hundred after—maybe not three hundred—maybe two hundred after Buddha passed away.

So, we think that is—those scripture was not told by Buddha either, but those scriptures, like Abhidharma—Abhidharma group as scribes—are ascribed to Shariputra. He is, you know, that kind of person. I don't know how to compare Shariputra to Subhuti. Subhuti is more like Zen master type—Zen teacher. Shariputra is more—not scholarly, but more brilliant teacher, and who helped Buddha in various way.

Q: Did Subhuti become a Patriarch?

Q: Or a teacher?

No, no I don't think so.

Q: According to one tradition, the Buddha didn't appoint an heir or successor—or after he died, he didn't say who should follow him?

No, yeah.

Q: Then according to another tradition, this Mahakashapa. How did Mahakashapa become ???

Mahakashapa—this is also no—we have no historical evidence, you know. But Zen school, you know, because we put the emphasis on transmission, our top written scriptures, we do not transmit. We do not put the emphasis on scriptures. So, Zen is called a school outside of the scripture sutra teaching. “Kyozu Butsuzen” —special teaching—special ??? teaching, beside or outside of the scripture. So, I think this is something—this is creative or a story for [laughs] Zen school. [Laughs] I shouldn't say so….

So, ??? do you know the story about when all the—all his disciples and followers sat down, Buddha appeared with he were one flower. And no one, you know, could know, what does it mean? That flower mean?

Only Mahakashapa smiled, and Buddha said, “All my teaching is yours. You are my second Patriarch,” he said.

This is a very famous story. And this is, I think, dramatic, you know, way of expressing how we transmit, our—our teaching to our disciples. Not by words, but by a kind of intuition or—not verbal, but more closer relationship. What do you call this kind of relationship? I forgot the words it’s called.

When, you know, you—you could know, not by words, but not—even more than a feeling.

Q: Connecting?

Hmm?

Q: Intuitive?

Intuitive, no.

Q: With empathy?

Hmm?

Q: Empathy?

Empathy?

Q: Or Psychic?

[Laughs, laughter.]

Q: Nonverbal?

Nonverbal [laughs, laughter]. That is, anyway, but, you know, just for compare[?] ???, you know, just flower he—he showed them beautiful golden flower, Mahakashapa [laughs].

Q: How could Mahakashapa?

[Laughs] the same person[?]. He could understand what it was. But only Mahakashapa, smiled beautifully, and Buddha said, you are the only one who could understand this. In that way Mahakashapa—Buddha transmitted all his teaching to Mahakashapa. So, that is why we have—we do not depend on any special speeches.

But if you, you know, if you understand his way to practice, develop zuda practice, and always preside[?]—always practiced with Buddha, and with disciples as a head of the group, you may understand him. You make a picture, you may have a picture of him, what kind of a person he was, not by word, not by intelligence[?], but by practice, but by his—his everyday act.

He could be a good example of the—all of the student, and in—in short, he was like a Shuso [laughs]. He—he was then maybe a good Shuso. Whole [laughs] life a Shuso of Buddha’s, only disciple.

So, of course, he understood what is emptiness, and what is Zen, and what is teaching, and what Shariputra may say. But he was very strict with himself, and his practice for himself was very strict.

Some other questions?

Q: Um, Roshi, the lecture before this yesterday ??? when it comes to laid down for ???? only to eat two meals a day and to wear a robe made out of old rags sewn together, and others and to practice in a quiet place, like the forest.

Uh huh.

Q: We, you said that we try to still keep the spirit of these laws alive, it's difficult for me to see how we do that when so many of what—so much of what we do is presented ???.

[Laughs] yeah, pushes[?]. But you may, you know, feel the spirit of why they did it, and even though we—we are doing things quite different way, you know. You can do it with the same spirit—with same spirit. You know, and even though you use brand new [laughs] material, you can do it, with the same, you know, spirit. That doesn’t mean we should always use something which people throw away.

But even though, you know, we have plenty of food, you can do that. For an instance, if there is—with you are head of the kitchen, like Ed, then you can use all the food without wasting. How to make best use of it is your spirit.

When I came to San Francisco, for two years I—I lived—my—my wife was not with me. So, I went to a restaurant[?]. When I buy some food, I choose the worst one [laughs] instead of best one. There you save money [laughs]—I choose vegetables which people may not want it [laughs]. And, you know, the next to Sokoji there is a grocery store—and the mistress, she was very much interested [laughs] to find where I'm buying food [laughter, laughs].

I always—always felt sorry for him—rotten apples and [laughs] potatoes. [Laughs] I thought, eventually, they will throw it away without, you know, changing for the money. So, I give them money and I buy it [laughs]. And I also feel—felt very good how vegetables may feel when I buy it [laughs, laughter]. If I buy best one, when the [laughs] I saw a crying vegetable to eat [laughter, laughs] ???. If I buy, you know, the worst one, all of them may be happy [laughter, laughs].

That kind of, you know, consideration is necessary—the same spirit—with the same spirit you can do things. Right now, after Buddha passed, after 2000 years after Buddha passed away. I think I am not Mahakashapa [laughs] Mahakashapa, but that kind of spirit is necessary. This is especially transmitted spirit from my master, and from my father, too.

My father was a teacher, a master of my master, you know. So, [laughs] I became a disciple of my father's disciple. So, their way is very similar. My father—my—my master used to tell me something about my father did when he was young.

[Laughs] after takuhatsu, or when he come back to his zendo, there were river—not big river. If vegetables, you know, come down from up a river, my father would take off [laughs] his shoe—geta, and pick up vegetables, by himself. Sometimes he told my master, who was my father's disciple, told him to pick the vegetable, whenever they saw it—he saw it.

[Laughs] so, my master said, “Whenever I see vegetables,” before my father tell him to pick up, he would do it, take it back to—to their temple. So, my master told me not to waste anything, and if you eat something with fruit, you should take the worst one. Worst thing—if there is three apples, you should take worst one. [Laughs] so I was trained in that way, so still I feel very sorry, you know, if I take best one. So, naturally, I take, you know, without even thinking, I take worst one. And there are many things, you know, to think about in those twelve zuda practice.

Q: Roshi, could you tell us again what the twelve zuda are?

Oh. Oh, I have it—the paper, here, maybe. I don't know why—too many [laughs]. I must have left [shuffling papers]—the paper. [Shuffling papers.]

As, you know, before eating, you should eat something which was given to you by takuhatsu, and you should—when you do takuhatsu, you should do it by order, and you should not beg too many times—once or twice. Not even. And when you receive it, you should know how much you should—how much you want; and you should not take more than you want.

[There appears to be a tape change at around 29:00.]

… in a ceremony, we put the emphasis on harmony, and respect, and calmness—calmness. And jaku is more than calmness. Meaning, jaku—jaku is nirvana. Harmony, respect, and calmness, and nirvana.

That is four?

Q: Three?

Three, okay. Begging by order, and amount of the food, and how often—that once or twice. It says in scripture, says once—once, not twice.

Q: Beg once a day?

Once a day. And amount. So, one is, you know, always you should support yourself by begging. That is one.

When you beg, you should do it in order, not to—without choosing, you know, good family, or wealthy family—by order. But one by one, you should change—you should not change your order, with some greedy feeling. So, it means that you should not be greedy. So, to support yourself by, you know, only by begging, and by order you should do it. And you should not do it more than once a day. And you should not have it more than you want. You should think how much you want. That's four, already—about food.

The wearing, is—should be this robe, or that kind, or more—this is seven—seven pieces robe. But you can—you will have robe made of more than seven—nine or thirteen. But you should always leave on it. And the material is—should be the material which you collected from city. Unzoi.

And where you live is under the tree. Or, if you become attached to—to the feeling, good feeling under the tree, you should go to the cemetery [laughter, laughs]. You know, this is the spirit, you know. You should be very strict with yourself. You should not develop your—you know; you should not spoil yourself [laughs]. You should have always renunciation. So, if under the tree is—is so—if you become attached to it, you should go to cemetery. Or you should go to some place open common[?], where nothing—where you have nothing to protect you. Everyone see [laughs]. If you're lying down, everyone see you lying down. “Oh, he is that lazy monk.” People may say, so you have to be always sitting!

And you should not, you know, lie down, even though you sleep [laughs]. This is not asceticism, you know. This is how to keep up your good spirits [laughs, laughter]. And you should always live—the first—the first one was, you know, you should always live in aranya, a forest or woods. Like many religious people who gave up—who retired from family life. Oh, something like that. I don't know how—how many you have. Nine or ten.

Q: They have nine.

Hmm?

Q: We have nine ???.

Very interested. Hai.

Q: Roshi, if—if that's not asceticism, then how do we understand just that our practice is to live everyday life?

How?

Q: Because our practice is to live in the world.

Live in the world. Even though you live in world, you may live, you know, according to Bodhisattva's way. To help people, you should live in the world—in city. And you should help them. But the way you help them is the same way. It’s—it’s same spirit. We can practice this kind of practice in the city, too. Not literally, but modify your practice. With same spirit, you can do it.

Q: It seems like you have to modify those twelve entirely.

Q: Yeah. [Laughter]

In Zen you don't need to, you know, attach to the—those things literally. You will find out some way to. If you have this kind of feeling, you will know, this is, you know, whether you are spoiling yourself or encouraging your spirit. You see? So, at that time, you can change your attitude a little bit. Just a little bit works very strongly. To buy a lot of vegetables is just a little bit [laughs], this much.

[Laughs] when they are interested in—there are—they won’t—even they drive with one mile or ten blocks or after ten blocks walk--walk, they may go to the best store and best business. When they're doing so—if when someone [laughs] choose worst vegetable, [laughs] but no such story.

This is just your—not much practice, you know, just a little bit change. Little bit different from usual way, but it works. And it helps you yourself, and it will give people some teaching. You can do that.

Q: Yesterday on the town trip, in one of the large grocery stores we would shop at, there were kind of in the back where we buy our vegetables, there were three very big cardboard boxes full of food like you were describing—that they were going to throw away. Lettuce, and old oranges and apples and so forth. What would you think if—if we were actually to—to take that. I mean to ask the manager to use that food, so that on the next town trip we’d bring it back to Tassajara. Would you think that would be practicing…

But the…

Q: the spirit of these possibly[?]?

For the head of the kitchen to buy, you know, [laughs] worst one will not be so good. But if we have that kind of spirit, you know, I think and grocery store and farmers will help you a lot, you know. They may give you [laughs], even though you don't expect them to give you. But if your real spirit is there ….

Q: I don’t understand what you mean.

[Laughs] well, what was your point of question?

Q: The question was: Do you feel that we should bring back to Tassajara those three large boxes of food which the grocery store didn't feel it wanted to have on its shelves, but which was still quite edible?

Yeah, I think so.

Q: We should bring it back to Tassajara?

Yeah. And we should make best use of it. If it is possible to eat, we will eat. If it is not, then we can’t take it [laughs].

Q: We should—we should pay them for it though, shouldn’t we? The regular price? [Laughter.]

No, I don't think so [laughter]. We would pay for it?

Q: No, they would give it to us.

[Laughs] we will not pay for that [laughter]. As the head of, as you are working for Tassajara, so at that time, it is not just your practice.

There is this kind of story—that in Zuimonki, you know. What Dogen teach and what Dogen said was described by his disciple, and we have still that record called Zuimonki. There are many stories something like that. Some of them is very difficult to understand [laughter]. Why did he say so? It’s very difficult. Some more question? Hai.

Q: Get—getting back to the question of asceticism, with the cold coming on, I was thinking about putting a heater in my cabin, a small heater, and a question that came to my mind was, I—I knew some of the people that were here for the last winter. A lot of them didn't have heaters in their rooms. And they—they—they're here now [laughter]. But—but I—I wondered if—if you think it will be—do you know, it’s—I guess it's hard to make a general rule, but do you—do you think it would have hurt—hurt your practice too much to—to, you know, have a warm room to go to? [Laughter.]

Yeah. I—I think this way. You know, we—we are tendency, you know, some tendency. We will be more and more luxurious, and we will be more and more spoiled [laughs]. And we—we are finding some excuse for it. Always, you know, we are—our mind is working in such [laughs] a direction [laughter, laughs]. So, I think necessary to know that—what is our tendency.

Q: Sloppy.

Not to be—we should remember some word like “liable to” or “apt to” [laughs]. We should remember that two words. We are apt to do something. So, not to fall into the same hole [laughs] is very important.

In Japan we have—there is some—what do you call that—spider-like animal, small animal who dig a big—oh, not big—for him it is big.

Q: Ant lion.

Hmm?

Q: Ant lion.

A ant? ???

Q: Lion ant. Lion.

[Laughs, laughter] Good name! Ant lion. You know, all the ants may fall into the same hole, you know. And we human being, too, fall into the same hole—hole. We have some—we are on the edge of the hole like ant lion. So, if you fall in that same hole, [laughs], like ant, it may be very silly. So.

So, this kind of—when we, you know—if you want to protect, try to protect human being, we should be—we should be a guard of the hole [laughs]. You may fall, you may be eaten by ant lion [laughs], and at the same time, you should be very careful for yourself, too.

But still, we should not be afraid of our nature. We should develop our nature, as much as we can. But we should—if you want to develop your maybe desire, then you should know the tendency you have. So, this kind of practice is absolutely necessary if you—when you want to help yourself and help others. This point should be—this word, you know, “apt to” or “liable to” should be remembered always. Or else you cannot do anything.

And you should be always, you know, you will be always rigid and afraid of something may happen to you or scared of something which someone will do to you. While you have no this kind of practice, you don't know how to protect yourself and protect others, and how to help others.

If you know—your—if you know the word “apt to” completely, then you are quite safe, and you have—you have always confidence in yourself and—and helping others. So, without this kind of practice, Mahakashapa could not manage Buddha's disciples. This is a very important point, and with this spirit, I think we should practice zazen. Just to practice zazen to, you know, to acquire something is not our way. Okay? [Laughs] did you understand? Hai.

Q: Where do we find the determination and the perseverance to continue to live a life or to carry on in a way that—to keep ourselves from wanting to spoil ourselves? Where—where does this determination come from?

Determination comes from zazen. Even though you—you are painful, you know, we are apt to, you know, give up zazen when you are painful. Always you have—you should train yourself in that way, with our practice, until you have full confidence in yourself—not to fall, [laughs] into ant lions’ hole. And with determination you see edge of the hole [laughs] without complaining, “Oh, this is dangerous!” [laughs, laughter]. That is not zazen [laughter]. Okay?

In that way you should always make yourself strong—strong enough to go on to the city, and strong enough to help people. Strong enough to have some candy [laughs] when you want it [laughs] sometime. Not always [laughter]. You should know, if I—I eat candy, I may want one more. No! Okay? That kind of point is the very important point in your zazen, and in your everyday life.

Not—don't try to find out where[?]. But [laughs] try to strengthen yourself—make it stronger. So that you can do it quite easily.

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Source: digital audio archive from DC. Problem set audio work by Angus Atwell. First transcribed March 2012 by Judy Gilbert. Verbatim version based on Engage Wisdom audio by Peter Ford 1/2025.

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File name: 68-10-00-J: Lotus Sutra, Lecture No. II-11 (Verbatim) This lecture probably should not be considered part of the Lotus Sutra series, although that's how it's been identified for years. Another partial version is in hidden file 68-10-00-X (ID# 478).

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